I just received this comment on my review of The Book of Joby by Mark J. Ferrari, which was reviewed way back in October 2007:This was just awful. Nothing origin in here just cuss words which completely destroys the etheral, mythological setting and tone the author is trying to go for. Every 'fuck' that is said just pulled me out of any fantasy setting that was attempted. Imagine if a 'Fuck' was thrown out in the middle of Star Wars or Rings? It has no place in a fantasy story. Yes I know its 'adult themed' but its just using swears for pointless shock value.
I would avoid this book like leposy.
I, too, would avoid leposy. It sounds awful. However, stingy as I might be with my review quotes at the moment, I will say this: The Book of Joby is better than leprosy. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say it's way better. It's a long time since I last read it, but I can't remember that many swear words in the book, which I liked and would recommend. But even so...
What is it with swearing? In the middle of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings I can understand, perhaps. But no swearing in any fantasy novels? Should ethereal, mythological settings be kept free of (really rather old) four-letter words and other variants?
Should the aesthetic side of writing fantasy, keeping it clean and pure and beautiful, win out over realism? Is there a difference between swearing in a book and swearing in a movie? Just a few thoughts that have been swirling in my head since that last comment, and I'd appreciate any thoughts you people have on the subject :)
Let the (friendly) argument begin!
Tuesday, 31 March 2009
Swearing in Fantasy (again): Any Thoughts?
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27 comments:
Shock value? Perhaps if you're living in a very sheltered environment. I swear, my boyfriend swears, my parents swear, my boss swears... why can't fantasy characters do it too? I haven't read the book, but from the review is sounds like it's a modern story - I wouldn't expect Guinevere to swear at Arthur is the story was set in that time, but if it's a modern Guinevere living in 2000 in LA? Duh.
But this doesn't seem to be about swearing per se, rather than about a word. I suppose no one would be bothered if some hobbit said "may I spit on your mother's bed" although it might be a huge insult in Hobbiton.
Bottom line, my answer is... "it depends". If the characters are hip - yes, please swear, it can be so fun and entertaining. If the setting is medieval/clearly in a time where such strong words were major taboos, it can ruin the atmosphere.
I personally don't like swearing and save it only for the occasions when I really need to emphasise my pissed-off-ness. I slap the same measure on books (and films), whatever genre they're in. For fantasy set in somewhere unlike our world, I prefer it when authors don't use our swear words. Other languages don't use English swear words, so why would a whole other universe use them? If you're going to swear in fantasy, at least be original. If you're living in a world where everyone's talking poetry, you're going to have some pretty creative swear words, or curses, or whatever. Curses I like--we have one about camels, I think, that I can't quite remember. Curse people with fleas rather than calling them a bastard. It's much more interesting.
Well, it frackin' depends, doesn't it?
I have mixed feelings about swearing in fantasy. Ultimately I think it has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Does it fit comfortably in the world being portrayed? It's true that some of these swear words are rather old, which is something I hadn't thought of. While in principle I think I'm opposed to the overuse of swearing in fantasy, I have to admit that in both George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" and Richard K. Morgan's "The Steel Remains" it works pretty well.
Well, as long as the fantasy universe characters speak English... why not English swearwords too? It's not like someone's going to write a book in say Finnish and then have the characters swear in English.
We're willing to believe that somehow the English the author uses is actually some make-believe dialect, so why not apply it to swearing too?
I swear all the fucking time so I don't give a shit if there is swearing in fantasy. I'd rather the actual swear word was used instead of some lame made up curse word like frak of goram.
I hate 'frak' with a passion. Now there's a word that makes me lose focus every time I hear it!
I'm trying to write a Christian novel and I'm having trouble avoiding swearing. I decided to go ahead and have the characters swear, and try to sell it as a non-Christian novel if I must.
If the nature of the characters is that they will swear, then it's kind of hard to put "Darn!" or even "Damn!" into their mouths. You can cut off their words like this, "What the--!" But can't work every time.
If you're going to have a novel set in modern times, it is going to be very difficult to avoid swearing, unless you are writing for the children's market.
The commentator had unrealistic expectations.
Tia, to put your problem into perspective: the deacon at my childhood church didn't hold back swearing. Minor curse words anyway. He said hell, damn, etc. So you may be okay as long as the curse words are not the heavy hitters. Plus, it will give your character some character. :D
Yeah I swear a lot too and do not mind it in fantasy novels, however when every single character says "fuck" all of the time such as in Richard Morgan's "The Steel Remains" then I think they start o lose their individuality. I call that series "The One Where Every Single Character Says Fuck A Lot". It just got ridiculous in what is otherwise and entertaining read.
I don't really mind swearing in novels, fantasy or otherwise. When it gets overused it is distracting. A character's grittiness or outrage can be conveyed with some swearing but it does not have to be every other word to get the point across. Although I struggle not to use cuss words in my personal life, I actually keep my writing pretty clean. I use minor swear words or descriptive statements like "He made a vulgar suggestion."
I do like those works that have made up cuss words like "frack".
The thing I find strange is that I rarely swear in real life -- yet in my fiction, conversations with other people, films, etc. -- I don't mind it at all, particularly in humourous situations.
I'm not often keen on some of the made up swear words or curses in fantasy, though. "By Hrothgar's great green gizzard!" isn't as effective as a simple "Oh shit" or whatever, in my book. Not least because I'm not entirely sure what a gizzard is, and it probably ain't green.
Like some of the comments stated, it greatly depends on many factors involved with the writing process whether or not fantasy characters swear or use foul language. Say you're writing a modern day, gritty fantasy story (like Watchmen is to the comic book and superhero genre) swearing and all kinds of innapropriate content will be necessary for the sake of the characters and story line. People are real and real people swear all of the time. Thus if one desires their characters to be real, than well of course swearing will need to be utilized. I wouldn't say that swearing needs to be over abundant just for the fun of it. If it doesn't serve the story and characters it shouldn't be there, just like other things as love triangles and so on.
Yeah, better warn this person off Richard Morgan's books.
The only character in The Steel Remains that swore every other word was the teen steppe nomad girl. (And I had a niece who at that age swore pretty much the same amount.) I actually re-read the book to see whether or not it was true that the other characters said f*** all the time and they actually didn't.
I think it depends on the situation and who the book or film is aimed at.
In certain settings swearing could be justified.
However I don't think it should be over used.
For me I agree with some of the posters, this isn't a cut and dry issue. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It has to fit the character and make sense in the world. I haven't read this book, but frak man, people talk that way...
I'm not one for prolific swearing myself but I don't mind it in books or in films. Would have loved a bit of swearing to appear in Lord of the Rings, although the f word may not have been right in a galaxy far far away.
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I am currently reading some of the Anita Black books by Laurell K Hamilton and I love that she has swearing in it. It makes it more real. If a vampire was coming at me to tear out my throat I would be swearing my head off! Sometimes though it is inappropriate, I think it depends on the book and the setting which I know is a sitting on the fence answer!
What a great post, thanks for your hard job. I wondering if you need a pair of jordan shoes, I the fresh on selling jordan shoes on line, hope this comment wont trouble you much or pleade del it, thanks for your post again, have a good one.
I much prefer the author approach where they simply tell us that the character mumbled something under his breath, or cursed viciously. That allows us to fill in our own, perfectly acceptable explicitive, while giving us authenticity. More importantly, it allows us to decide to what degree the character has sworn. I think swearing has a place in literature, but for the most part it can be avoided, and should be in order to make books accesible to the widest possible audience.
Chris - Where are you? Please tell me you're still planning on blogging?
I am :) I'm afraid I've taken rather a long hiatus, but I've started writing and saving posts and I'll be starting things back up in July. I just needed a break. I'm going to make sure I have lots of posts saved, so that, just in case I go AWOL again, I won't leave things in the lurch.
I enjoyed your post about Patrick Rothfuss' trip to London, by the way! Wish I could have gone! Hope you're well, Graeme.
Hello all
As a middle way between F*ck and Fr*k might I suggest the very fine Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English by Eric Partridge (1894-1979).
Some great swear words and crude expressions which, whilst being thoroughly authentic (many of them old military slang)have enough of that other worldly feel to not ruin the mood and let too much of the 21st Century in.
My personal favourite: to audit one's accounts in the kingdom of Neptune (to chuck up overboard) - although admitedly it's a bit of a mouthful, if you'll forgive the pun.
I'm writing a novel based slightly in the future in 2014, where the world is in practical hell, coinciding with the personal vendetta's with the main characters pasts and presents, causing a hell of a lot of emotion. And I think, to not use swear words when all that mental struggle builds and is released would just take away from the 'real' drama of their lives, almost everyone i know swears when they breakdown. Even though a fantasy, You still want the book to be believable.
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